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	Comments on: Garwin &#038; Von Hippel on NORK Nuke Test	</title>
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	<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/</link>
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		<title>
		By: sunbin		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-405</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sunbin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Oct 2006 01:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;a couple point to consider&lt;br /&gt;1) 4970g of Pu blast apart is no different from the same mount of dirty bomb blast by 20kg of TNT in the middle of the sky?&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;2) could the â€˜fizzleâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" /> (less than intended blast) be caused by purity problem of the Pu?&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a couple point to consider<br />1) 4970g of Pu blast apart is no different from the same mount of dirty bomb blast by 20kg of TNT in the middle of the sky?</p>
<p>2) could the â€˜fizzleâ€™ (less than intended blast) be caused by purity problem of the Pu?</p>
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		<title>
		By: yale		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-404</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.totalwonkerr.net/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-404</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;They are all successful blasts, just with different yields.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;1/2 kiloton blast releases roughly 30-40 grams of fission products, 4 kilotons release roughly 200 grams of fission products, and a WW2 size blast about 1,000 grams.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Altho the fission products cause acute contamination, (some lasting for 100+ years), the Pu is a hazard for many multiples of its ~30K year halflife.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;The ideal target for a small atomic weapon is a â€œcivilianâ€ atomic plant.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Each reactor (there may be 1 to maybe 8 reactors at a site) contains fallout equivalent to detonating 1,000 hiroshima-sized bombs.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Upwind of a city, industrial area, or agriculteral zone, the civilian power plant makes an excellent high leverage target for a terror weapon.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They are all successful blasts, just with different yields.</p>
<p>1/2 kiloton blast releases roughly 30-40 grams of fission products, 4 kilotons release roughly 200 grams of fission products, and a WW2 size blast about 1,000 grams.</p>
<p>Altho the fission products cause acute contamination, (some lasting for 100+ years), the Pu is a hazard for many multiples of its ~30K year halflife.</p>
<p>The ideal target for a small atomic weapon is a â€œcivilianâ€ atomic plant.</p>
<p>Each reactor (there may be 1 to maybe 8 reactors at a site) contains fallout equivalent to detonating 1,000 hiroshima-sized bombs.</p>
<p>Upwind of a city, industrial area, or agriculteral zone, the civilian power plant makes an excellent high leverage target for a terror weapon.</p>
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		<title>
		By: sunbin		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-403</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sunbin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 14:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;the difference is&lt;br /&gt;a) 4970 grams of relatively stable radioactive Pu, plus little atomic soup (Cs/etc)&lt;br /&gt;b) 4770 grams + 200 more grams of highly radioactive element soup. a lot more detrimental.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;and a successful blast means a lot more than 200grams of element soup.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the difference is<br />a) 4970 grams of relatively stable radioactive Pu, plus little atomic soup (Cs/etc)<br />b) 4770 grams + 200 more grams of highly radioactive element soup. a lot more detrimental.</p>
<p>and a successful blast means a lot more than 200grams of element soup.</p>
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		<title>
		By: yale		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-402</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Oct 2006 04:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.totalwonkerr.net/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-402</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Robot Economist mentions one of the long-term effects of a â€œfizzleâ€ detonation. It does &lt;em&gt;â€œspread Pu particles everywhereâ€&lt;/em&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;If the NK device carried  5 kilograms of plutonium, and it were detonated in the atmosphere, it would disperse somewhere around 4,970 grams of plutonium.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Interestingly, if it went to the full yield of 4 kilotons, rather than 1/2 kiloton, it would still disperse some 4,770 grams of Pu into the biosphere.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;That fizzle came within 200 grams of Pu fissioning (only a few 10s of billionths of a second) from going full-tilt-boogie.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robot Economist mentions one of the long-term effects of a â€œfizzleâ€ detonation. It does <em>â€œspread Pu particles everywhereâ€</em>.</p>
<p>If the NK device carried  5 kilograms of plutonium, and it were detonated in the atmosphere, it would disperse somewhere around 4,970 grams of plutonium.</p>
<p>Interestingly, if it went to the full yield of 4 kilotons, rather than 1/2 kiloton, it would still disperse some 4,770 grams of Pu into the biosphere.</p>
<p>That fizzle came within 200 grams of Pu fissioning (only a few 10s of billionths of a second) from going full-tilt-boogie.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Robot Economist		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-401</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robot Economist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Oct 2006 05:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.totalwonkerr.net/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-401</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;yale does have a point â€“ even a â€œfizzleâ€ from an implosion device can still yield an economy of explosive power (and spread Pu particles everywhere).&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;If the North Koreans can only produce a fizzle through testing, what does that say about their ability to field a credible nuclear weapon?  Chances are a fizzle under test conditions will yield nothing when traveling at a few hundred kph on the tip of a Scud.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yale does have a point â€“ even a â€œfizzleâ€ from an implosion device can still yield an economy of explosive power (and spread Pu particles everywhere).</p>
<p>If the North Koreans can only produce a fizzle through testing, what does that say about their ability to field a credible nuclear weapon?  Chances are a fizzle under test conditions will yield nothing when traveling at a few hundred kph on the tip of a Scud.</p>
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		<title>
		By: yale		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-400</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 21:39:53 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;I would agree with Steve, that it would be considered a â€œfailureâ€ in the sense of not meeting design goals of, say, 4 kiloton yield.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;But in the sense of a â€œfailureâ€ to detonate a fully effective, massively destructive atomic weapon, that â€œfailureâ€ would be a misleading description.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would agree with Steve, that it would be considered a â€œfailureâ€ in the sense of not meeting design goals of, say, 4 kiloton yield.</p>
<p>But in the sense of a â€œfailureâ€ to detonate a fully effective, massively destructive atomic weapon, that â€œfailureâ€ would be a misleading description.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-399</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 20:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.totalwonkerr.net/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-399</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;As previous poster correctly notes, a â€œfizzleâ€ yield is most definitely not a â€œdud.â€ But if the device was designed to yield, say, 10-20 kt and only produced 200 tons, or even only 1 kt, that could still be considered a â€œfailureâ€ of the test.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As previous poster correctly notes, a â€œfizzleâ€ yield is most definitely not a â€œdud.â€ But if the device was designed to yield, say, 10-20 kt and only produced 200 tons, or even only 1 kt, that could still be considered a â€œfailureâ€ of the test.</p>
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		<title>
		By: yale		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-398</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[yale]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.totalwonkerr.net/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-398</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;It is good to see Garwin and von Hippel emphasize a point that seems to be ignored in the discussion of the NK device:&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;â€... even a 1 kiloton explosive would still be a terrifying weapon. Recall that the 1995 Oklahoma City explosion involved only a few tons of ANFO. A 1 kiloton (1,000 ton TNT equivalent) bomb could kill people in an area of about one square mile and would partially destroy a much larger area. Most of these deaths would be from fire or from the prompt nuclear radiation.â€&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Calling what was likely a â€œ&lt;strong&gt;fizzle&lt;/strong&gt;â€, a â€œdudâ€ or a â€œfailureâ€ is a major error, leading to underestimating what a terrible thing has occurred.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;A &lt;strong&gt;fizzle&lt;/strong&gt; is simply a detonation of lower yield than designed. It does &lt;strong&gt;not&lt;/strong&gt; mean a dud. Wrong words leads to wrong thinking.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;The 1/2 kiloton NK fizzle would kill with immediate radiation over a 2 square kilometer area.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;The area in the red ring in this image of Manhattan is the &gt;500 REM lethal zone. The yellow arrows show the World Trade Center for scale purposes:&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;&lt;img src=&quot;http://solar-photon.com/images/wtc-halfkiloton.png&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; width=&quot;580&quot; height=&quot;653&quot; /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is good to see Garwin and von Hippel emphasize a point that seems to be ignored in the discussion of the NK device:</p>
<p><em>â€&#8230; even a 1 kiloton explosive would still be a terrifying weapon. Recall that the 1995 Oklahoma City explosion involved only a few tons of ANFO. A 1 kiloton (1,000 ton TNT equivalent) bomb could kill people in an area of about one square mile and would partially destroy a much larger area. Most of these deaths would be from fire or from the prompt nuclear radiation.â€</em></p>
<p>Calling what was likely a â€œ<strong>fizzle</strong>â€, a â€œdudâ€ or a â€œfailureâ€ is a major error, leading to underestimating what a terrible thing has occurred.</p>
<p>A <strong>fizzle</strong> is simply a detonation of lower yield than designed. It does <strong>not</strong> mean a dud. Wrong words leads to wrong thinking.</p>
<p>The 1/2 kiloton NK fizzle would kill with immediate radiation over a 2 square kilometer area.</p>
<p>The area in the red ring in this image of Manhattan is the >500 REM lethal zone. The yellow arrows show the World Trade Center for scale purposes:</p>
<p><img src="http://solar-photon.com/images/wtc-halfkiloton.png" alt="" width="580" height="653" /></p>
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		<title>
		By: CKR		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-397</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CKR]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 14:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Some of the early reports were that the test was conducted in abandoned mines, which would have a network of tunnels and shafts that I would expect could serve to decouple the blast.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Also, Iâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" />ve read reports that the seismologists donâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" />t even have much information about the geology of the site, which is essential for analyzing the seismic information.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;On the other hand, they could probably do several modeling runs with different geologies and see how much they differed.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;But so far, thereâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" />s not enough in the open literature on either seismics or radionuclides for us to do more than speculate.&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;It doesnâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" />t sound like Garwin and van Hippel have any more than we have.&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the early reports were that the test was conducted in abandoned mines, which would have a network of tunnels and shafts that I would expect could serve to decouple the blast.</p>
<p>Also, Iâ€™ve read reports that the seismologists donâ€™t even have much information about the geology of the site, which is essential for analyzing the seismic information.</p>
<p>On the other hand, they could probably do several modeling runs with different geologies and see how much they differed.</p>
<p>But so far, thereâ€™s not enough in the open literature on either seismics or radionuclides for us to do more than speculate.</p>
<p>It doesnâ€™t sound like Garwin and van Hippel have any more than we have.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Arrigo		</title>
		<link>https://totalwonkerr.net/2006/10/19/garwin-and-von-hippel-on-nk-nuclear-test/#comment-396</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Arrigo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Oct 2006 08:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
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					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;It would probably help if you didnâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" />t slap that gold replica of Fat Man on your front lawn, wouldnâ€<img src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/2122.png" alt="™" class="wp-smiley" style="height: 1em; max-height: 1em;" />t it?&lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;On a more relevant note: I am still puzzled as to why the possibility of a decoupling cavern has been totally ignored.  &lt;/p&gt;

	&lt;p&gt;Is there something â€œobviousâ€ I am missing (except brains possibly)?&lt;/p&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would probably help if you didnâ€™t slap that gold replica of Fat Man on your front lawn, wouldnâ€™t it?</p>
<p>On a more relevant note: I am still puzzled as to why the possibility of a decoupling cavern has been totally ignored.  </p>
<p>Is there something â€œobviousâ€ I am missing (except brains possibly)?</p>
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